mallory_blog ([info]mallory_blog) wrote,
@ 2006-06-13 18:35:00
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Current location:rantsville
Current mood: thoughtful
Current music:just me
Entry tags:gender, rants

Gender Redux...
Most of you know that I continue to be concerned with gender/age issues relating to short story sales and market accessibility. [info]ccfinlay has offered up this interesting post on the subject today http://ccfinlay.livejournal.com/58972.html.

I'm still not certain what I really think about it. There is a part of me that said, hey, this sounds good, why not? But there is another part of me that said, what is this saying, exactly? Why do I suddenly feel hinky?

JJA (F&SF's editorial assistant) said:

John came back with: "I know, I know! I'd be happy to mix some women writers in our top eight, but I was trying to keep recognizable professionals in there. What I'd *rather* do is have the top eight be all F&SF contributors, but I haven't found enough of them that are F&SF's friend. I think you're the only one!"

...recognizable professionals...

and herein lies the rub... A small number of magazine markets control the 'identity' of writers as professional or not professional. The orientation of these markets toward specific kinds of stories necessarily limit the scope of who attains this status. Favoritism or bias, even a tiny amount, has large consequences, particularly if this is a hidden 'shared' bias (say the one of the default reader being 30 something white male) in limiting the access and success of persons not conforming to that underlying format.

Further, if access is granted (token)wize or as a means to appease unrest then (in my opinion) the result is a 'limited' success story or the resulting identification of not quite recognizable professional status for a token number of female writers.

In some ways this is quite evocative of the issues around civil rights with words like integration and discrimination ghosting right at the edges.

I argue, that the issue isn't whether women are producing quality stories, it's that the magazines aren't buying them. Throwing a 100 stories by women at a market and then entreating the 'already professional' female writers to make sure they have theirs in there too - is really sending a harsh message. I remind you that the LARGEST paperback market in the world is FEMALE and it is primarily written by female writers. What underlying distinctions limit success in THIS genre?

The answer here isn't to send more, it's to go look at the underlying structure and examine what it is telling you for clues to WHY this is happening. If you believe your market is 30 something white males - then that is what you will receive. Consider what portion of the SF (writer/reader/film watching) population FITS that default. Is it time to adjust your bias - your compass?

_____________WEIGHING IN

[info]lzernechel http://lzernechel.livejournal.com/28042.html Right on!!!
http://www.asimovs.com/discus/messages/2/5655.html?1150489164 AWESOME debate - go NICK go!!!
[info]mme_publisher http://mme-publisher.livejournal.com/96892.html Excellent post!
[info]mkhobson http://bricoleur.livejournal.com/ Kicking down the doors!
[info]cpolk http://cpolk.livejournal.com/171118.html
http://www.emcit.com/wordpress/?p=2698
[info]nihilistic_kid http://nihilistic-kid.livejournal.com/786348.html
[info]matociquala http://matociquala.livejournal.com/826288.html
http://www.tuginternet.com/jja/journal/archives/004068.html slushgod he doesn't seem to have read much of the debate yet...
[info]ccfinlay http://ccfinlay.livejournal.com/59234.html
[info]ccfinlay http://ccfinlay.livejournal.com/59439.html
[info]ccfinlay http://ccfinlay.livejournal.com/59742.html
[info]benpeek http://benpeek.livejournal.com/449338.html
[info]mevennen http://mevennen.livejournal.com/278350.html
[info]ann_leckie http://bren-cameron.livejournal.com/56536.html?mode=reply
[info]katallen http://katallen.livejournal.com/155329.html
[info]jmeadows http://jmeadows.livejournal.com/392391.html
http://www.deborahmcdonnell.com/damselfly/archives/2006/345
[info]ericmarin http://ericmarin.livejournal.com/56747.html
[info]livia_llewellyn http://livia-llewellyn.livejournal.com/11293.html
[info]tanaise http://tanaise.livejournal.com/629838.html the online poll
[info]amberdine http://amberdine.livejournal.com/72357.html funny!
http://www.tobiasbuckell.com/wordpress/?p=2220
[info]swan_tower http://swan-tower.livejournal.com/22567.html
http://www.tuginternet.com/jeremy/archives/004077.html Tar Pith
[info]lzernechel http://lzernechel.livejournal.com/29217.html excellent!
[info]benpeek http://benpeek.livejournal.com/449853.html exactly!
[info]cristalia http://cristalia.livejournal.com/107004.html
[info]secritcrush http://secritcrush.livejournal.com/119575.html
[info]rachel_swirsky http://velourmane.livejournal.com/86470.html
[info]rosefox http://rosefox.livejournal.com/1010232.html

______________2001 Survey (3 top mags)
http://brassman.xtra-rant.com/women_write/index.htm




(20 comments) - (Post a new comment)

Curious phenomenon
[info]j_cheney
2006-06-14 02:35 am UTC (link)
Yes, it is expected that publication will begin with short stories and you go slowly crawling up through the ranks of zines until you hit the PRO zines, followed by the eventual novel sale.

I wonder if that particular paradigm might have a fundamental flaw. Coming from education field as I do, I constantly think in term of a this analogy. There's this magic divide that occurs somewhere around seventh grade.

Most people prefer to teach either older than that, or younger. High school teachers go 'yuck, how can you teach third graders', while the elementary teachers say the opposite. Some people are just more suited to working with a certain age group.

I sometimes think this is analogous of our writing world....some people are good at short stories and some are good at novels. The way things seem to proceed in our industry, you "have to" start with first graders. Some people stick with first graders, possibly move to fifth. Others go on up to high school. Others start teaching high school, but they're the lucky ones...

I'm just no good with first graders....

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Curious phenomenon
[info]mallory_blog
2006-06-14 03:00 am UTC (link)
Well, to be honest I'm not much interested in writing for a 30 something white male (I did that already in a novel - earned my merit badge and everything) I'm interested in writing genre fiction that blows my skirt up (pardon the pun) but I don't think [info]nihilistic_kid has it right either - his suggestion is for female writers to approach other markets with their spec fiction materials and even talked about eroticizing stories to fit certain magazines.

Is THIS a male market?

Are women trying to gain membership to a male only club?

What is spec fiction about and why DOES it attract women? Is the male (primarily) club one about who is able and allowed to go on adventures? Seeing (child bearing and mothering) women as unable to participate except BEFORE they fall "in love"?

If spec fiction IS escapist literature then who better NEEDS to escape?

While I'm at it let me once again rant about the stunningly beautiful bimboesque 18(or younger)something female protagonist who is the hidden descendent princess/special gifted person of some rich muckity muck whose revelation of her identity (gifts) will save the world...until she falls in love with her rakishly handsome 30something white guy hero to sally off to the bedroom for sexual antics and the loss of all future adventures due to pregnancy and kids and loss of bimboness!!!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Curious phenomenon
[info]j_cheney
2006-06-14 03:12 am UTC (link)
Let me say this....you read the same issue of F&SF that I did. Did you think it was more something men would appreciate, or women?

Spec fic....I don't really think I understand what that term means either. A question perhaps for J.E.Ormond, who edits SpecFic online.

Final paragraph note: I SO agree with you.
I write young women who aren't pretty, who have problems, etc. I also write older women. Women with a past, women with children to worry about. Pregnancy is not a valid excuse for not having an adventure!

(Ironically, the queen in my story just told her advisor she's pregnant---sorry, that by the way, is not going to turn out well)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Curious phenomenon
[info]mallory_blog
2006-06-14 04:16 am UTC (link)
I felt the last issue was geared toward emotionally detached men some of whom liked nifty gadgets. In my opinion the issues of the characters had the feeling of being artificial and not really important to the reader (no where to empathize) Generic characters?

What I love about spec fiction is that I can go anywhere, think up anything, do anything - the boundaries are my imagination and fears. It isn't about gadgets. Great stories are about GREAT characters and emotions that are real.

You have to give a damn and everything is possible.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Curious phenomenon
[info]lzernechel
2006-06-14 04:32 am UTC (link)
I've always seen spec. fiction as male-oriented. I mean, when I try to describe spec. fiction to an outsider to the genra, I say, Twilight Zone. Twilight Zone was always a male-oriented show... And when I write spec. fiction it tends to be from a male perspective. But the subject that the male is forced to deal with are subjects that women find important. God. Angels. Death. Friends who are sick. Things that are important to me, I guess.

I love writing women who are just finding their unique way. Sometimes their old, mostly young, but always unique. Not overwelmingly, but subtile. People that I'd be proud to call a sister, or a friend.

My all time race is a more halfling type.

My all time favorite therefore is women halflings. Go figure...

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Curious phenomenon
[info]mallory_blog
2006-06-14 04:42 am UTC (link)
We talked about this in the default post (a little earlier in the blog) - about what we write, what our personal defaults are, how we conceptualize them, what does it mean, etc...

I've always seen spec fiction as 'limitless adventure' and perhaps I received 'fem' vibes early because I grew up on Andre Norton. When I started reading spec, female authors, in genre, were few and far between so when I found one, I pounced. There are absolutely male writers I adore too and most of my top 5 recommendations are by male writers but like I said, if you have 4-1 selection, that's about what you will have in favorites.

When I started to really notice that I was having trouble finding spec fic that resonated with me, that's when I decided to take a close look at my characters and story lines to see what I was writing.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Curious phenomenon
[info]lzernechel
2006-06-14 05:03 am UTC (link)
Huh. I'll have to go back further. I was just skimming the surfaces of a couple of people's between answering the plethora of stuff going on in my blog space. :)

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Re: Curious phenomenon
[info]mallory_blog
2006-06-14 05:05 am UTC (link)
No worries :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]lzernechel
2006-06-14 03:07 am UTC (link)
I've stayed out of the debate until now. I'm so hot, I could, I don't know, grill a steak on my head! http://lzernechel.livejournal.com/28042.html

(Reply to this) (Thread)

grilling...
[info]mallory_blog
2006-06-14 04:17 am UTC (link)
you token woman writer, you...

The kings are granting an audience, albeit crowded, wanna kneel?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: grilling...
[info]lzernechel
2006-06-14 04:26 am UTC (link)
Why kneel when we can all stand up together and make a wall that no one can break?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: grilling...
[info]mallory_blog
2006-06-14 04:44 am UTC (link)
Well, kneeling gets you sore knees...

Standing allows for forward movement. I never much liked sore knees.

Editors aren't gods and writers aren't serfs.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Just from my experience
[info]highway_west
2006-06-14 05:36 am UTC (link)
I have edited only one anthology. Two if you count the one in progress.

http://www.simianpublishing.com/catalog.html

For Gods and Monsters: Out of 200 submissions, I had 15 submissions from women.

Into the Dreamlands is currently pending so I don't have exact numbers. However, it does look like there are a lot more women submitting this time around.

In some sense, it is a numbers game. The more I write and submit, the more acceptance letters I get.

And here is something really weird. There are a million women writing fanfiction. Some of it is well written and if they tried their own stuff, they would do great, but they don't. I tried to convince a group of women to try their own stuff at Rustycon and they laughed at me.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Just from my experience
[info]mallory_blog
2006-06-14 06:52 am UTC (link)
I think this is the puzzler - no one seems to have strong numbers on the ratio of male/female writers (at least I haven't seen it so far so if you have it anyone - please zip it over here)

I critique a lot and I feel like I'm reviewing about 1 1/2 female written material to 1 male. This, again, may be a perception or an activity favored more by female rather than indicative of anything.

Was there anything in your announcement of the anthology that may have reached or been favored by men over women?

Do they know you more now for some reason?

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]amberdine
2006-06-14 11:41 pm UTC (link)
I mentioned this in the comments at [info]lzernechel's, but you might not see it. I remember this same gender bias in SF mags conversation years ago, elsewhere. It all unfolded pretty much the same, except that no one thought to try to fix it with a mass submisison day.

After a while Gordon showed up and analyzed his submissions for us, and out of the stories sent by women, he published a higher percentage than he did of men out of the stories sent in by men. He was looking for fiction from women... and they weren't sending very much. Other editors said the same.

And everyone was embarassed and the debate died very quickly. :p

(Reply to this) (Thread)

excellent debate
[info]mallory_blog
2006-06-15 12:14 am UTC (link)
I think it's an excellent debate. I don't really think it should be focused solely on women submission stats - I think if you have a long term issue that observing the issue isn't enough - what mechanism is perpetuating the issue? Submission stats may be a product of the issue rather than the source of it -

Women don't like being rejected - by men in particular. You might say it plays into the larger issue of gender dynamics and historical power struggles. Historically SF had more of a male audience and again it might pay here to go take a cultural look at the early-mid 1900s to identify why this was true - then as you move the clock forward you find women struggling to break into the market. You can even go back into the 1800s and see someone like Mary Shelley disguising her 'femaleness' in order to make sales of her work (as an example)

When I was first discovering spec fiction almost everything was written by men with a male aesthetic. Often it was dry, hard, info dumpy and chauvanistic. Women were frequently trophy characters with bimboesque qualities. When I discovered Andre Norton I was thrilled, even though she was writing primarily TO the market - there was still a different FEELING to her work and it was some time before I knew she was a female (her name sounded male).

It is 'reasonable' to speculate that women write somewhat differently from men - they come at material from a different angle. This is not to say that women cannot masculinize their writing just as men can feminize theirs (their are numerous examples of this too) - but, if the general underlying format is an orientation toward male favored material then a lot of good stuff won't make it. If a perception of bias develops (the current state) then that perception acts as a force (perhaps subtle) to push an individual away from where they feel they are being made unwelcome.

Many new writers are RAW with rejection and struggling with self confidence in their abilities - the feeling that there is a glass transom between women and success shouldn't (in my opinion) be ignored.

Something exists or the experience wouldn't be such a lightening rod for so many people.

Perhaps if these career building magazines humanized their covers, layout, scope of interest (content) - women would feel less 'silenced'.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]camillemulan
2006-06-15 03:14 am UTC (link)
Thanks for the link to CCFinley. I love his stories. It was neat to read his blog. This discussion around this whole thing is amazing.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

excellent topic...
[info]mallory_blog
2006-06-15 03:38 am UTC (link)
You are quite welcome. Near as I can tell he is a really good guy trying in that mighty way that men do, to do SOMETHING about a problem when no one else seems to be doing anything. I also think he has asbestos underpants and can weather the ride well.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]ide_cyan
2006-06-20 02:01 am UTC (link)
I've just posted about this to [info]whileaway, and linked to this and a couple other of your entries.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]mallory_blog
2006-06-20 02:42 am UTC (link)
Thank you!

I've added the community to my flist and I will go visit the group to see how the discussion develops. Thank you for including me!

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